Why do they (still) hate us?
Editor’s note: In the weeks and months following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, a common impromptu lesson in American public school classrooms centered on the question, “Why do they hate us?” While it’s impossible to know how those thousands of discussions came out, one might assume that most teachers fell back on President Bush’s simplistic, face-saving explanation: that the terrorists envy our freedom. In one of the great ironies of history, the federal government responded by ignoring the Constitution and instituting policies that diminished our freedoms in the name of homeland security. The terrorists, so it seemed, had succeeded. Five years and two wars later, we are still asking the same question: Why do they hate us? When it comes to international hatred, there are no easy answers, but as long as Americans continue to see themselves as innocent victims, the truth will remain elusive.
___________________________
by Ali Erritouni
When Muslim terrorists attacked New York and Washington D.C. on Sept. 11, 2001, their barbarous acts came as a shock to us. Many of us couldn’t understand why anybody would hate us so much that they would kill themselves in order to hurt us. While we were pondering the taproot of that atrocity, our president came to the rescue. Fearful that we might stray into dangerous territory, he explained, “They hate what we see here in this chamber—a democratically elected government. . . . They hate our freedoms—our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble, and disagree with each other.”
This explanation was simple and reassuring: it sought to prevent us from delving into American foreign policies and, therefore, from discovering some unpalatable facts about them; it spared us the arduous task of researching history books and recognizing that our continuous support throughout the 20th century of vicious dictatorships in the Middle East, South America, and Asia had little to do with freedom; and it helped us overcome the trauma of the attacks by making us feel good about ourselves: we are superior, rich, and, above all, free, and that’s reason enough for other people to envy us and wish to cause us harm.
The terrorist attacks were criminal and immoral. Yet to say that the perpetrators of those crimes killed themselves and three thousand people in the process just because they hated our freedoms is simplistic and dangerous—simplistic, because it reduces complex political motives to quasi-religious explanations, and dangerous, because a world where people fight over irreconcilable world views and beliefs can never experience peace. If, in the words of Rudyard Kipling, “East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,” then the Muslim East and the Christian West will keep fighting each other until the end of time—an event likely brought about by some nuclear holocaust.
I will not get into the political grievances that motivated the 9/11 terrorists. But I will share with you some incidents that have happened recently and that have made many people in the world “hate” us. By so doing, I hope to draw your attention to the fact that our government and corporations have done a good deal of harm in the world, so much so that people not only in the Middle East but also in Mexico, Europe, and South America may feel justified in giving us tit for tat. The CIA calls this desire for revenge “blowback,” making it clear that terrorist attacks against Americans may be a counter-response rather than an unprovoked aggression.
Because its victims are almost always innocent civilians, terrorism can never be justified; however, it is vital that we understand that the barbarism of international terrorism is largely a response to the barbarism of American foreign policies. We need to reject Bush’s explanation of the motives behind the events of 9/11 and behind other terrorist atrocities because, unless we understand the real reasons that drive people to hate us, we will not be able to remedy them and to create a more peaceful world. In fact, blinded by an arrogant sense of self-righteousness, our government and corporations continue to abuse other people, oblivious to the possible consequences of their actions on all of us.
- The 20th Century Fox movie Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan has so far made over $70 million; yet, some of the Romanian villagers featured in the movie were paid between $3.30 and $5.50. Even worse, lacking any human decency, the
producers of Borat cast the unsuspecting villagers in unflattering ways in order to force laughs out of us. Nicolae Staicu, a Romanian community leader, complained that “[t]hey took one of our 75-year-old ladies, put huge silicone breasts on her and said she was 47. . . . . [O]ne of our men who is missing an arm had a plastic sex toy taped to his stump." The moviemakers also had a woman put her cow inside her house where they made it defecate and urinate. Associated Press William J. Kole reports that “[r]esidents and local officials in the hardscrabble hamlet 85 miles northwest of Bucharest said Tuesday they were horrified and humiliated to learn their abject poverty and simple ways were ridiculed for a movie now raking in millions at box offices worldwide.” The vilified villagers come from Glod, an impoverished Romanian village, which lacks basic modern conveniences such as indoor plumbing and running water. As if their circumstances were not difficult enough, our movie industry must make exorbitant profit out of them and, to add insult to injury, mock their poverty. - The U.S. has vetoed a draft United Nations Security Council resolution condemning the Israeli attack on Beit Hanoun, Palestine, which killed 19 Palestinian civilians, mostly women and children. It’s not the first time our government makes it clear to Arabs that their lives are worthless. In his recent book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, Jimmy Carter deplores Israel’s daily violation of the Palestinians’ basic human rights. He also argues that our overt and tacit support of Israel’s confiscation and continued occupation of Arab lands is bound to intensify anti-Americanism in the Arab World.
- Mexicans complain that the low cost of Wal-mart’s products in Mexico City have bankrupted small farmers and public markets. However, despite their complaints, Wal-mart, given its political and financial clout, will continue to do business as usual.
- According to the UN, the civil war in Iraq has claimed the lives of 7,200 people in the last two months alone. It does not take much brain power to realize that before the American invasion, there was no civil war; that after the invasion, a civil war started between Shiites and Sunnites; and that the invasion is consequently responsible for the civil war. Yet, this very simple syllogism seems too difficult for our corporate journalists to grasp. Ralph Peters, USA Today journalist, opined that we have offered Iraqis the opportunity to become democratic, but they have squandered it: “we did give the Iraqis a unique chance to build a rule-of-law democracy, [but they] preferred to indulge in old hatreds, confessional violence, ethnic bigotry and a culture of corruption.” Peters goes on to say that "it's their tragedy, not ours.”
- Aside from their lack of human decency, people like Peters never seem to learn from history. If we leave Iraq to its fate, it would be only a matter of time before their tragedy becomes ours as well. Peters seems to have forgotten about our experience with Afghanistan. After the Cold War, we left that country mired in armed conflict, poverty, and tribal politics. 9/11 is partly the outcome of that lack of vision.
- Here is a humane and, as it happens, a realpolitik solution to the Iraq war: The U.S. government should 1) get American troops out of Iraq immediately; 2) convince the Iraqis, through diplomatic channels, to come to the table and to devise political rather than military solutions to their differences; 3) give Iraqis enough money to help them rebuild their country. (In a more just world, we should pay Iraqis billions of dollars in restitution for the damage we did to their country.)

60 Comments:
I agree with most of Ali's comments. On two issues I disagree and think his reasoning is as slight as the people who believe terrorists would attack us because of our output of Brittany Spears and CSI.
Borat is played by Sacha Baron Cohen, a British satirist. The U.S. government is often target of his pranks. I seriously doubt that same group of fuddy-duddies financed this movie to spread ill-will throughout Romania. Furthermore, the villagers were paid to do the things they did (I've yet to hear of someone physically forcing another to wear prosthetic boobs). If you've seen the movie or Da Ali G show, you'll know that Cohen's Shtick is to see what people will do for attention or money.
The other point is much more murky. If we leave Iraq now, there will be no Iraqis to concince to get along or to give money to. Any decent Iraqi will most likely be dead. We've made such a huge mess of the place that I wonder if we can ethically leave. It's either pull out and hang our heads in shame or fix everything we screwed up. The Democrats all have plans, they say, for Iraq. Now's the time to start implementing them. A pullout is a death-sentence for democracy and a welcome to extremists to take over.
Satire is comedy that make fun of people. These guys should have been smart enough to sign better contracts.
11:18--
Let's be honest. How can a regime that seeks to restore Muslim religious law--sharia--be hailed as democratic?
Of course nobody forced the Romanians to accept $5 for their stunts. But to extend your logic to E. Liverpool means that we should be thankful to corporations like Wal Mart and Sheetz for paying their employees--who often happen to be our brothers, sisters, and neighbors--a pittance, while they rake millions out of us.
Moreover, you ignore the fact that the poor are never in a position to impose their wishes on corporations. These can always pack and leave, but the poor simply can't refuse to work for the going rates because they have no alternatives.
12:26--
Satire is a great artistic expression that has been debased by the movie industry. At its best, satire, a la Jonathan Swift, pokes fun at the moral, social, and political limitations of human beings in order to suggest remedies to them. The "satire" used in Borat is outright racist and immoral. Apart from the obscene laughs it incites, it has nothing of value to teach.
Ali
Same old story with Ali Erritouni......America bad, everybody else good.
Ali you keep saying us! As far as I can tell you are one of them!!
Ali is right, you cannot ignor the facts simply by the nationality of the person presenting them.
Ali is an AMERICAN CITIZEN which makes HIM one of US!
Excellent piece Ali!
J
As far as I'm concerned, 3:48 and 6:29 should no longer subscribe to this blog. Both of you (wait, don't tell me:) white, working class, bible-thumpers have missed the whole concept behind ORL. As fate would have it, you two idiots are exactly the type of Americans this website warns against: willing to follow their prepackaged patriotism off a cliff. If this nation is ever going to make it into the future, we're going to need a major retooling of our cultural ideologies.
I thought I'd leave my name instead of hiding behind the cloak of anonymity. maybe you people should kick that idea around a little...
Well…Well…Well …Ali you really amuse me. As usual I have a differing opinion of your writings and I am not surprised that you, with this article, have not changed my opinion.
First let me start with your editorial comments.
*You said common impromptu lesson in American public school classrooms centered on the question, “Why do they hate us?” You followed with one might assume that most teachers fell back on President Bush’s simplistic, face-saving explanation: that the terrorists envy our freedom. Of course if the aforementioned is not valid then the remainder of your article is mostly “smoke”, wouldn’t you agree? I find with the amount of political reading I do, I never recalled reading what you recounted as being taught in our schools. In this respect, providing your unbiased source(s) of this information would be appreciated.
Let us assume, until we hear from you, that your sources have cited valid information and proceed with your article.
*You stated that the President said “They hate what we see here in this chamber—a democratically elected government. . . . They hate our freedoms—our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble, and disagree with each other.” I am of the opinion that what you would like for us to believe is that President Bush should have explained, in detail, the foreign policy of the US for the middle east over the past 40 or 50 years. That if he would have taken the time to do this small gesture we would all feel differently about 9-11. Tell me this is not what you are suggesting, is it?
You would like for us to believe that we, the people of the US, are the problem.
*You stated because its victims are almost always innocent civilians, terrorism can never be justified; however, it is vital that we understand that the barbarism of international terrorism is largely a response to the barbarism of American foreign policies.
*You stated we need to reject Bush’s explanation of the motives behind the events of 9/11 and behind other terrorist atrocities because, unless we understand the real reasons that drive people to hate us, we will not be able to remedy them and to create a more peaceful world.
*I would remind you that the US is the most caring, charitable country in the world. If you need my references for this statement, I would be more than happy to provide you with the reading points.
I am not going to discuss “Borat” because in my opinion it is idiotic and does not warrant discussion. Although not about “Borat” I never heard your criticism of the film that depicted President Bush being shot. Or did I miss that article?
Regarding your statements about the Israel/Palestinian conflict, I find the situation sad. My position is that I am not familiar enough with the history of the area in dispute and, am therefore, not qualified to speak on it. I would however have to assume that based on the past positions of all US government administrations, including Jimmy Carters‘ nothing there has really changed. I do not, however, agree with your statement that
anti-Americanism in the Arab World will intensify. As long as we are spending our dollars on their oil they will, to our face at least, accommodate us.
Until you have time to rethink your position on the above, let’s look at what you have said regarding our invasion of Iraq.
*You stated that It does not take much brain power to realize that before the American invasion, there was no civil war; that after the invasion, a civil war started between Shiites and Sunnites; and that the invasion is consequently responsible for the civil war. Yet, this very simple syllogism seems too difficult for our corporate journalists to grasp.
Ali, to be able to make a statement like this…well, where have you been? OK maybe there wasn’t a civil war before our invasion, but don’t just ignore the killings Saddam did. As late as this morning on Meet The Press with Tim Russet, Gen Dowling stated there is not a civil war. Religious zealots, yes but not civil war. How you can try to tie the invasion with what you call a civil war is beyond me. I will agree with you this was a very simple syllogism.
It is apparent to me you will never agree that If we leave Iraq to its fate, it would be only a matter of time before their tragedy becomes ours as well. But your solution is unique to say the least.
*The U.S. government should 1) get American troops out of Iraq immediately; 2) convince the Iraqis, through diplomatic channels, to come to the table and to devise political rather than military solutions to their differences; 3) give Iraqis enough money to help them rebuild their country. (In a more just world, we should pay Iraqis billions of dollars in restitution for the damage we did to their country.)
Ali, let me explain this to you…
A. You, other than Murtha, are a lone voice that cut and run is a option. As Rep Ike Skelton (D) said on TV this morning,
(1) the people of Iraq said, though elections, they wanted a democracy,
(2) a Iraq military must be set up (almost there according to Ike), and
(3) maintain order (this is why we are there) and then
(4) pull out US forces.
B. Your solution on talking to the insurgents is nuts, no better way to say it. How would you ever talk to someone you are intent on killing you?
C. Your liberal side come right though on the last item…throw money at them…they will love you….ya,ya,ya
In closing: Regarding your Kipling quote Muslim East and the Christian West will keep fighting each other until the end of time. Unfortunately, I personally believe this is where we are at….why, because we are a caring, compassionate, charitable country who believes all men and women are equal. The radical insurgents believe just the opposite.
Good thing the Wiz watched tv this morning or there wouldn't have been anything in her post that was well-stated.
If anyone can prove that there is any reason for the hatred of the U.S. other than our arrogance and messing around in affairs that don't pertain to us, she should prove it.
The U.S. is hardly the most caring nation unless you count how much each administration cares about its own agenda. If we cared, we'd help when nations ask for our help.
Everyone here has defined themselves to me in their anylysis of "Borat." Ali seems to think it was made by an American government, one guy thinks it isn't satire (if you think Swift was the best at it, I guess you're likely to get any satire past sometime in the 1700's), and the Wiz deems it (the word all well-spoken people use) "idiotic."
Have any of you actually seen the movie Borat?
"If we cared we would help." What a stupid comment. We send billions of dollars in foreign aid to countries in need of help. I am no "Wiz", but I agree with him/her. I think Ali should go to Iraq and try to "talk" out a solution. See how far that gets him.
Who's stupid, the guy who knows that we don't help every country in need of help or the guy who thinks foreign aid is always for countries in need of help?
Thank you Josey and Luke for correcting 3:48 and 6:29.
Luke eloquently and correctly identifies the reason behind my criticism. Like him, I fear that those who are “willing to follow their prepackaged patriotism off a cliff [may drag us with them]”; and I believe that “if this nation is ever going to make it into the future, we're going to need a major retooling of our cultural ideologies.”
Wiz’s response is detailed and echoes the views of many Americans; therefore, it deserves a detailed response.
Wiz:
• It was not me who said that schools and teachers echo Bush’s argument that the terrorists attacked us because they hated our freedoms. That was the editor’s note. But I do agree that many teachers fall back on that lame explanation. I have taught at two public schools and two universities since 9/11, and I know for a fact that many educators explain 9/11 to their students as the acts of people who hated our freedoms.
• My argument is that, to avoid a repeat of the tragic events of 9/11, we need to understand them, not explain them away.
• Unlike you, I have no rational and moral explanation for the death of over 1 million Vietnamese and 600,000 Iraqis; they are criminal acts, plain and simple. Saddam was a horrible man, but what has happened to Iraq in the last three years cannot in any way justify his removal.
• I do believe that Americans are among, if not, the most charitable people in the world. But our government cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be called charitable. The aid we give other countries comes with strings attached. One of the stipulations of foreign aid is that the countries receiving American aid must use the money to purchase food and military equipment from our corporations. We have all heard our government and media talk about all the billions we have spent on rebuilding Iraq. But what we never hear is that the money has actually gone to companies like Halliburton and Betchel, which overcharge the taxpayer. Of course, if we hadn’t destroyed Iraq’s infrastructure in the first place, we wouldn’t have had to replace it.
• After watching Meet the Press, you feel convinced that there is no civil war going on in Iraq. But what would you call the acts of two groups from the same country killing each other at a rate of 3800 casualties a month? An altercation? A scuffle? A brawl?
• Giving Iraqis money is not a liberal idea; it is the right thing to do, morally and politically; since we destroyed their country, it is only right that we pay them to rebuild it; and if we don’t, we will simply repeat the mistake we made in post-cold-war Afghanistan.
Ali
It's awful easy to refute the Wiz.
When did it become the United States of America's job to help out everyone in the world? I think we should defend our own and take care of our own. Let the others figure it out for themselves. I realize we are a blessed nation, but it is hard to help when you get criticized for it.
Good point. Just don't pretend you care when all your expenditures are maneuvering
I've got an idea:
Why do we hate them?
Pick a country and have the ORL readers say why they hate that country's people.
The lack of any intelligence shown would be hilarious!
I was aware that you personally did not say the comments of the schools. I was asking for your sources of the information, i.e. articles, etc.
You and others relish in the use of significant numbers, as if they are meant to confirm your statements as fact. The figure of 600,000 Iraqis has been disputed and put to rest long ago as unsubstantiated. I agree they are criminal acts and should not be condoned, however, why do you always try to lay the cause on America. Based on your comment, “Saddam was a horrible man, but what has happened to Iraq in the last three years cannot in any way justify his removal”, what would you consider appropriate for his actions?
When you say Americans are charitable, but not our government, I would remind you we are our government. Your goody-two-shoe approach that we should just give our monies to those who ask without anything in return is just absurd thinking….show me any country who does what you advocate.
Regarding your comments about Halliburton and Betchel, I remind you we are a free market society. Don’t lead your readers to believe our government just procures when and how they want. The government employees making these contracts have to abide by regulations and tons of reviews prior to final awards being made. The over-riding question in contract awards is “can the contractor perform“. Find me other companies that can provide the services these two firms can provide. I believe you will not find any.
You asked, what would you call the acts of two groups from the same country killing each other? I would call them “radical religious zealots who have generations of conflicts“, who feel they can now kill each other and not have to worry about Saddam killing them. I would add…let them have at it!
To whomever the Wiz dictates his posts to: please read u something to her about No bid contracts in Iraq and read the definiton of "civil war" to her also.
Wiz:
The U.S. government can either be actively involved in the world and shoulder the consequences of that involvement, or mind its own business. It just can't tell the world how to behave and how to do things without putting money where its mouth is.
We've all heard Bush and other presidents say that America is the leader of the free world, that America is the only remaining super-power. These titles are not just honorific; they come with a large amount of responsibility.
All countries have groups that hate each other; but these hatreds need the right circumstances for them to become murderous. Catholics and protestants, for instance, have had a long history of animosity, often murderous--I suggest that you read the history of the Reformation and the religious wars in Europe. Right now they're not fighting each other, not because they have made peace for good, but because nobody is fueling their hatreds and arming them to act on those hatreds. Human beings are neither good nor bad; they are merely products of their circumstances. Of course, some people are able to rise above their circumstamces, but they're an exception that serves only to confirm the rule.
Ali
The only way any of this is every going to be settled world wide is to have Klaato & Gort make a short visit and maybe then and only then will we begin to listen to each other.
I dont give a shit if Ali is an American citizen. That still doesnt make him one of US.
A good determination in the quality of a country is how many people are trying to get in and how many are trying to get out.
Actually, that's a fucking horrible setermination of the quality of a country. Most people don't even know how to leave their hometowns much less their country.
"Borat" is from England and Wal Mart isn't owned by the U.S., it's just a corporation that happens to be here. Jimmy Carter deploring something means nothing, most people who remember deplore his presidency.
All these obvious political geniuses posting here makes me wonder why our communities, (east liverpool and wellsville) have such "deplorable" leadership and council members, not to mention mayors. If everyone in this area is such an expert on political affairs, why aren't they running for council or mayor and making a difference. Nah, it's too easy to play monday morning quarterback.
Cause we all know how easy it is to elect someone intelligent into office.
"Most people don't know how to leave their hometown much less their country."
So then no one ever leaves? Amazing and here I thought people were coming to the U.S. and moving all around. Wow, thanks for the insight buddy.
Actually there are immigrants to most industrialized nations. Hillbillies think that everyone is dying to come here but it's not true.
So then there aren't a lot more people trying to get into our country than trying to get out? Sorry I'm just a dumb hillbilly and when I see that people are in fact literally dying to get into this county I just assume that they must want to be here.
It's just not a good determination of the quality of a country. The best determination is how well the country preserves human rights and how well it cares for its people. A good measure of government is how little it governs and how well it defends its people.
If a country is preserving human rights and caring for it's people, I bet people would try and get in and few would want to leave.
Ali said:
"It does not take much brain power to realize that before the American invasion, there was no civil war; that after the invasion, a civil war started between Shiites and Sunnites; and that the invasion is consequently responsible for the civil war."
Yeah they were all living in paradise over there before us big, bad Americans came over and screwed things up. Go hug some trees, Ali.
I love trees! What's wrong with hugging trees?
“Saddam was a horrible man, but what has happened to Iraq in the last three years cannot in any way justify his removal”
Hitler was a horrible man, but we should have just stood by and watched him kill thousands of Jews, right Ali? Because war is bad and we lost troops and people died. How dare we remove someone from power, that is pure arrogance. Hitler and Saddam got shafted by the US!
Ali:
Regarding your comments at 11:33am. Answering your statement about the US involvement as the leader in the world and their subsequent responsibility, I believe that we are doing exactly what you are saying we should be doing in the world, including Iraq.
Your other statement regarding human beings and their being products of their circumstances, I totally agree with this. I don’t see the harm in the US trying to change the situation for the people of the Middle East. For example, I believe when we are successful in Iraq, you will see the madrasses used for their original intent….educating the young muslims of the Middle East who are trying to read Arabic so they could understand the true meaning of the Koran, rather then allowing radical thinkers to brainwash the children into believing the Koran stands for something it does not.
Ali, you lost me with your post of 2:03pm or maybe you were not responding to me, I don‘t know but, your first paragraph is taken from your original article, and I don’t see or understand how it ties to the second paragraph. Help me out here!
4:27--
Saddam certainly had Hitler's disregard for human life and dignity, but he lacked Hitler's military capabilities. Containing him was working perfectly fine.
His representation as a huge threat has less to do with facts and more with our government's geo-strategic goals in the Middle East. Some of these goals include control of oil and the creation of friendly neighbors for Israel, as through Israel were itself friendly.
Ali
Wiz:
2:03 is not my post. 2:03 was kind enough to remind me to hug a tree. I want to reassure him that I did. It felt good too.
Now to the serious stuff. Wiz, you seem to confuse Iraq with Afghanistan. Madrasas existed in Afghanistan under the Taliban regime. Obviously, despite all their "piety," God has done to them what he has done to humans throughout history, namely, give them the cold shoulder.
Unlike Afghanistan, Iraq was thoroughly secular. Women went to schools and colleges with men, and were not forced to wear the hijab. Alcohol and pre-marital sex were not illegal. Now women can't step out of their houses without the hijab!
I have no problem with American ideas and technologies reshaping the Middle East. The history of civilizations involves a great deal of inter-pollination. What I object to is forcing others to adopt our values. The Arab World used to have a great respect and admiration for the technological achievements of the U.S. I am not of course talking about the religious zealots.
Arabs watch American movies, read books by American authors, use American technology, such as Microsoft products, translate into Arabic American cartoons--such as the Simpsons--for their children, etc. It is hardly an understatement to say that the Arab World is saturated with American culture. However, when Arabs feel that that culture is about to be imposed on them, they understandably enough reject it.
Ali
Ali…your post of 5:10pm:
Yes I had erred (Iraq with Afghanistan), I was just checking to see if you were paying attention!:)
Now I have to make sure I understand what you wrote….Iraq was secular and as you stated “women went to schools and colleges with men, and were not forced to wear the hijab. Alcohol and pre-marital sex were not illegal“. Could I assume that these privileges were only to be had, if Saddam permitted? Or for only those that Saddam elected to have this access and really has nothing to do with the secular issue, am I right? About not even forced to wear the hijab, this was Saddam’s decree, wasn’t it?
You seem to elude that it is the result of something the US did or have done for the reason women are not being able to step out of their houses without the hijab, could you explain this?
I would think if they were and are now truly secular that anyone could do whatever they wanted, wouldn't you agree?
"..You seem to elude that it is the result of something the US did or have done for the reason women are not being able to step out of their houses without the hijab, could you explain this?"
Would you mind re- stating this sentence? I don't understand what you are saying. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
Hoofsteps:
Ali's post of 5:20 stated....Unlike Afghanistan, Iraq was thoroughly secular. Women went to schools and colleges with men, and were not forced to wear the hijab. Alcohol and pre-marital sex were not illegal. Now women can't step out of their houses without the hijab!
I am asking the question if women were not forced then but are now...why is this? I am thinking, maybe rightly or wrongly that he may be saying it is because the US is there in Iraq. But I do not know. Hence the question!
I suspect the tree-hugging comment had to do with the writer equating a dislike of U.S. foreign-involvement with the hippie movement, something I hear a lot from slow-witted conservatives.
I wish Ali would elude much more eludidly about the fact that normal Iraqi citizens can no longer exist if the U.S. pulls out. The government will be toppled and extremists will most likely rule as they did in Afghanistan.
Wiz:
The idea that every individual Iraqi was oppressed by Saddam is erroneous. Saddam targeted people who opposed his regime or were suspected of resisting his oppression. Otherwise, Iraqis went about their daily business unmolested.
In contrast to our misconceptions about the Arab World, most Arab countries are secular. Of the 22 Arab countries, only Saudi Arabia and the Sudan apply the Sharia in their legal system and impose the hijab on their women. Saudi Arabia is so backward and reactionary that the government does not allow Saudi women to even drive.
However, the other 20 Arab countries have no truck with religious interdictions. For instance, they have no laws against adultery or against women doing whatever they want with their bodies, such as wearing mini-skirts and going to the beach. Moreover, Lebanon has a Christian president and a Muslim Prime minister; Morocco allows women to divorce their husbands, something that goes against the explicit laws of Islam.
To be sure, these countries are not as secular as the U.S., but neither are they the religious fanatics we picture them to be.
8:37--
Extremists? At this point, everybody in Iraq may qualify as an extremist. Government officials among the police and military are largely Shiite. Therefore, they do not feel pressed to protect Sunnis against other Shiites. In fact, they have been involved in the torture and killing of Sunnis. Sunni insurgents, on the other hand, detonate bombs in markets killing innocent Shiites.
The U.S. government is trying to get the mostly Sunnite Saudi Arabia and Syria to rein in Iraqi Sunnis, and the mostly Shiite Iran to put a check on Iraqi Shiites. We'll see if these countries have any influence on their co-religionists in Iraq.
Ali
But when we leave, our money will not protect anyone from the overthrow of our puppet govt there now. The whole picture will change. I wish we'd never gone but I see what happened to Vietnam happening here the day we leave. It's not fair to the Iraqis who want a decent existence to leave them after we've fucked things up so badly. Can't we come up with an exit strategy better than just leaving abruptly?
I took the tree hugging comment to be making fun of Ali's implication that Iraq was all rainbows and puppy dogs before the U.S. showed up. If violating sanctions including no fly zones, not shooting down other people's planes, not complying with U.N. searches, etc is all rainbows and puppy dogs that is.
I did hear a guy once saying that life under Hussein was okay since he had them under control. That's pretty short-sighted. He needed to be taken out but we don't get rid of every despot that exists. Far from it (we create many of them king of like we helped create Sadaam.)
Ali:
I said at 7:37pm, “Could I assume that these privileges were only to be had, if Saddam permitted? Or for only those that Saddam elected to have this access and really has nothing to do with the secular issue, am I right? About not even forced to wear the hijab, this was Saddam’s decree, wasn’t it“? In your response at 8:37 you said, “The idea that every individual Iraqi was oppressed by Saddam is erroneous“. So based on your response, are you saying some people were not concerned what Saddam thought? If you are then I guess Saddam did not have total control. It is right? In addition, you said Iraqis went about their daily business unmolested. If this is valid what happened and why to the Kurds?
You never responded to the hijab issue….if they were not forced to wear under Saddam, then why are they now forced to wear them? Surely you are not suggesting that Saudi Arabia and the Sudan are forcing them into the wearing of the hijab, are you?
You say neither are they the religious fanatics we picture them to be. If this is true they why do we see all the killing that is going on between the Sunnis and the Shites. By the way, I understand the will to have the power in the government but this killing, I believe is much deeper. These conflicts are centuries old and center over religious beliefs.
Saying that every Iraqi is a religious extremist is like saying every American is a fundamentalist Christian. Most Iraqis are ordinary citizens, trying to get by just like most Americans.
As for how freely they walked the streets, remember that voter turnout was 100% and the vote was 100% for Sadaam.
OK 7:00 I challenge you to prove that to me. There is no way voter turnout was 100% in Iraq, let alone 100% in favor for Saadam. You Dem-wits will try anything!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/769961/posts
Challenge accepted and completed.
Now, Marilyn vos Savant, my point was that they weren't free if they had to turn out for elections and had to vote for Saddam.
And if it was on Reuters, it has to be true. No time to post anymore, Al Jazeera 6 oclock news in coming on.
OK genius, that was posted Oct '02. Nice try, but that election was before we invaded Iraq. I have a feeling the one you posted may have been a little influenced by Saadam regime. Again nice try Dem-wit.
So, you were talking about how free people were under Saddam after we invaded Iraq?
Yeah, 4:27. What the fuck are you talking about? Obviously the elections were fixed. That's what 12:04 meant when he said the people weren't free under Saddam. Hey, 2:58 is the only news you trust Fox "news"
No news source is perfect, but I'd trust Fox over ABC or CNN any day.
I find that hard to fathom. Fox News is without a doubt the worst news organization I've seen in my 51 years. The Fox motto, "fair and balanced," is a standing joke amongst virtually all journalists--including Fox's own employees (once they leave the company). I would not presume to tell you (or anyone) how or where to get your news, but I will say that I see Fox News in the same light as Saturday Night Live or the Christian Broadcasting Network. It's good for laughs, not for news. To put it another way, I truly believe that John Stewart's Daily Show news parody is more "fair and balanced" than Fox.
A standing joke among all journalists means nothing to me, or most of America. Most surveys show that America doesn't trust journalists anyway. They're just upset when 96% of them say they're voting for Clinton and then wonder why people wouldn't find them nonbiased. As far as former employees bashing them, former employees tend to do that. What'd you say about the Review when you left? Although I'm sure any station that covers both sides of an issue is a tough sell for you, you should really try it out. As opposed to other non biased journalists who run made up stories prior to elections to try and hurt someone or CNN who has maybe one Republican on staff. So just to prove Fox isn't the only station I watch, I'll end by quoting Glenn Beck from MSNBC: "Forgive me Father, for I have watched CNN."
Yeah, I see your point. Why listen to what experienced, professional journalists have to say about journalism? Anything I've said about The Review is true. The people who work there (and anyone who has ever worked there) knows it. But like you say, there's no reason to pay any attention to the opinions of professional journalists. What do they know about covering news? Listen instead to "most Americans."
If you watch Fox "news" at all, you would be better off watching the late-night talk show hosts' monologues for the news. AT least there'd be less spin.
I gave Fox a chance (thinking that the liberal media needed to be balanced) but that network is just plain silly. Shallower reports than CNN, speakers with blatantly incorrect figures who don't let their guests talk, and not an outlook which is influenced by conservatives but an agenda. They actually covered the latest elections from a standpoint of "how badly will WE lose?"
Exactly, why listen to what professional journalists have to say about anything? They're wrong, skewed, biased and make stories up for their own advancement and the advancement of their political causes. Why are you assuming that just because Fox has more viewership and success than other stations they must be evil? Are you telling me journalists do no wrong? Years of experience of bias and fact skewing doesn't mean you're professional to me, it only means you're experienced at lying.
I'm glad you were able to get a few buddies to agree that there are some faults at the Review. I don't know what I was thinking that you could perhaps admit no organization is entirely evil and perhaps there's some fault on your shoulders as well, or perhaps your exagerating against an organization you don't like.
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