What did they win?
M. Stewart
Today's Review reports that the East Liverpool Board of Education has reached an agreement with the local teachers union and a disgruntled teacher that involves a cash settlement of $18,560. Within the context of Ohio Senate Bill 5, this football coach mess is a disaster not only for the ELEA, but for public employee unions across the state.
No doubt Mr. Paul and the union think they've won, but what did they win? The public will see this incident as an example of a teacher walking off with a nice chunk of taxpayer money which he did not earn. It will be seen as legalized theft, and the union made sure it happened.
Of course the union will say it merely represented one of its members by forcing the district to recognize a provision in the contract that protects his rights. While this may be accurate, the public relations damage is incalculable.
What did they win? They won the permanent mistrust and animosity of the citizens of East Liverpool. Once SB-5 is passed into law, our teachers will have lost what little power they might have had--public support. And they sold it for $18,560.
Those who understand East Liverpool know that our citizens are a jealous, envious bunch. They hate it when other people succeed, and state employees--especially teachers--are the easiest of targets for the envious. What they will choose to see is a union that blackmailed the school district so that one of its members could steal money out of their pockets.
You say that's not really what happened here? That this is a misrepresentation? A purposeful disregard for the facts?
Yeah? So what? Perception is the only thing that counts in this political environment. The era of rational thinking and respect for facts is over.
If the union and Mr. Paul had a lick of good sense, they would decide that Paul should donate his $18,560 back to the Potters football program. That way the union could make its point without appearing to support the legalized theft of taxpayer money.
Such a gesture may not sway everyone, but it sure couldn't hurt--that is if the ELEA gives a flying you-know-what about public opinion and the future of unions in our state.
Today's Review reports that the East Liverpool Board of Education has reached an agreement with the local teachers union and a disgruntled teacher that involves a cash settlement of $18,560. Within the context of Ohio Senate Bill 5, this football coach mess is a disaster not only for the ELEA, but for public employee unions across the state.
No doubt Mr. Paul and the union think they've won, but what did they win? The public will see this incident as an example of a teacher walking off with a nice chunk of taxpayer money which he did not earn. It will be seen as legalized theft, and the union made sure it happened.
Of course the union will say it merely represented one of its members by forcing the district to recognize a provision in the contract that protects his rights. While this may be accurate, the public relations damage is incalculable.
What did they win? They won the permanent mistrust and animosity of the citizens of East Liverpool. Once SB-5 is passed into law, our teachers will have lost what little power they might have had--public support. And they sold it for $18,560.
Those who understand East Liverpool know that our citizens are a jealous, envious bunch. They hate it when other people succeed, and state employees--especially teachers--are the easiest of targets for the envious. What they will choose to see is a union that blackmailed the school district so that one of its members could steal money out of their pockets.
You say that's not really what happened here? That this is a misrepresentation? A purposeful disregard for the facts?
Yeah? So what? Perception is the only thing that counts in this political environment. The era of rational thinking and respect for facts is over.
If the union and Mr. Paul had a lick of good sense, they would decide that Paul should donate his $18,560 back to the Potters football program. That way the union could make its point without appearing to support the legalized theft of taxpayer money.
Such a gesture may not sway everyone, but it sure couldn't hurt--that is if the ELEA gives a flying you-know-what about public opinion and the future of unions in our state.
posted by M. | 8:35 AM
43 Comments:
Kinda makes one support Gov Walker in Wisconsin.....
Yes it does, especially if you're a jealous, envious type looking for a reason to screw public servants and make them your scapegoat.
Did you know in Wisconsin that a corrections officer can call off sick a 8 AM and then show up at 4 PM for a shift and get double time even though he didn't work the previous shift?
Did you know a retired teacher can sign up as an emeritus teacher and get $9600/yr......even if they work ZERO days?
Did you know that earlier this month, an arbitrator in Washington, D.C., gave 75 teachers — including chronically absent and demonstrably low-performing ones — their jobs back over a technical due-process issue?
Did you know that they are allowed to use work interoffice mail, phones, email and fax machines to communicate union business?
Did you know that employees on leave without pay to attend to union and contract bargaining activities are allowed to still accrue vacation and sick leave, not for time working for the state, but for time participating in authorized union activities?
Theres more....
No, I didn't know any of this, and I'm not sure it is true. I might be, but I don't know. If it is, then I'd say public officials need to learn how to negotiate better contracts with public employees.
Why are you so concerned about Wisconsin anyway? While I'm interested in what happens there, I'm more concerned about what goes on here in Ohio. Why do you need to place perceived injustices from Wisconsin on everyone?
Sorry, but I'm starting to agree with Bozo the Clown on this one. In theory, unions are great; in practice, they differ little from the mega-rich that protect their own. That public worker unions can adversely affect tax payer climate is even more insidious. By all means, though, I do support private sector unions, just not public. Teachers have been living high on the hog, man --- in most cases, their benefit packages are worth more than their salaries. I know a little middle school teacher who pays zero toward her insurance, and her pension --- off the charts. And for what? Babysitting? And nearly three months off a year? Old arguments, I know. What's weird Matt (and maybe I read it wrong), but it appears you're condemning what the local teacher's union accomplished, but then criticized what Bozo said --- which, in essence, only magnified what you already said. I'm confused --- and go easy on me if you respond.
Oh Matt, I was so proud of you. You were moving toward the light, you were beginnng the arduous task of differentiating the truth from lies.
Alas, that whine about the evil, jealous citizenry just took and halted your personal journey toward the 'good'.
What-it-is dude, is that 'you people' killed ye olde Golden Goose. Instead of just bleeding the taxpayers a 'little' you went and cut their throat, then bragged about it, rubbed their noses in it, and worst of all awoke the sleeping voter, who happily abandoned the C-democrats and voted in the Honorable John Kasich who will shortly be considered an icon of some sort.
I never thought I'd live to see the day when the C-democrats were almost universally thrown out, and I don't believe, other than in ELO, that it's over yet.
Forget the tax payer’s money and Paul being greedy, I know these things are bad but let’s think about kids and put them first for once. This is a moot note compared to the months these kids have lost. A few weeks after football the weight program should have began. Intense daily training should have been taking place to give our student athletes the best chance possible. So let’s just say December 1 2010 should have been the first day of lifting. We lost December, January, February, and now 15 days in March. These kids will never get back the time they are behind in training. I am a well educated person with years of training experience. Do you understand the chance you can make in a high school kids body in those 3 and a half months? It’s crazy to think about and realize you passed that up. Don't tell me that some of the kids have been lifting because they haven't. No kid has been training like then need to train to be a champion. This is a disaster to a football team where lifting/condition/training is the most important thing since you have to be big strong and fast to win. These kids have been cheated. Hopefully they at least do the right thing and get a coach in there who is willing to take lead this late in the game and make a last minute effort to try and salvage the off season. This is going to be a very tough job taking a Football job in Mid March where all of the ground work should have been put down. The new coach now has to find staff and try to get everything together with just a short amount of time remaining. You can’t start coaching in the summer and expect to have a winning season. It can take years of prep to teach the proper way to win. Good luck but with the upcoming schedule and late start it’s going to be a very serious uphill battle. If this new coach wins 4 games this year I think he should be rewarded and given the opportunity to have a program for a full year before you try to fire him and do this again. Good luck Potters I am in your corner and always will be just upset with the things have panned out.
Bob--
I'll never understand how the super rich and powerful have been able to get working people (excluding you, of course) to do their dirty work for them. Obviously, I don't see this issue as black and white; if I did, I would be jumping up and down at the East Liverpool settlement. Still, I realize that a few dumb asses who make bad decisions shouldn't be held up as a reason to change the entire equation of labor relations in the nation.
If there are abuses, then let management and employees work them out. Why stick it to the vast silent majority who work hard to serve the public good just because the rich need a political scapegoat to take the heat off them? The real purpose behind this Republican-led assault is to break all unions and tilt the table entirely toward management. You know this; I know this; everyone knows this. It's not about balancing budgets or fiscal responsibility at all.
The reason the Republicans won't come right out and tell the truth is that they've got the working classes right where they want them--that is, licking their boots and doing their bidding.
Wisconsin is important because it is indicative as what happens all over. The unions get a little power...the next union boss comes along and has to show that he will do a better job so he gets more bennies...then the next guy has to get more....and it just gets worse and worse.
And to say that the negotiators need to do a better job is disingenuous because they are part of the problem. The unions back Ds into office...the Ds give them more bennies so the unions give them more $$$ for their re-election...and the cycle repeats. The Ds and the unions are in cahoots together with the taxpayers on the outside looking in....until now.
And its not just the millions that the unions contribute to the Ds but also the huge amount of other support. Things like get-out-the-vote efforts...mailing lists, literature, manning phone banks ( most of those annoying phone calls at election time are by union people "volunteering" their time), transportation, registration drives, and more.
There should be a law banning public employee unions, and any affiliated organization that they create, from engaging in all political activities including all that I listed above. The individuals may do as they wish but the unions, and any affiliated organization that they create, need to be strictly prohibited from political activities.
Clearly , It's black and white , unless your sucking on the government tit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdgzBNh6kEM
dave--Who is sucking on the government tit? Teachers? Police? Firefighters? The military? Is that what you call public service, sucking the government tit?
It's becoming clear to me that those of you who have contempt for everything in the public sector deserve nothing. You don't deserve police protection, fire protection, national security, or education. It never occurs to you that you get what you pay for.
It's only "clearly black and white" for those people who choose to see in black and white--like you.
Bozo--
So let's all shop at the company store, right? Unions can be--repeat, can be--a problem, especially if you want to focus just on the problems, which is what you and your friends want to do. It's just a political game to you.
Real abuses should be isolated and renegotiated. Even if you claim that can't be done, it can, and it has nothing to with politics. Or at least it doesn't have to. This is a political game, nothing more, and the wealthy have been able to get all you suckers to do their dirty work for them.
I hope you never need anything from your neighbors who work in the public sector or who belong to unions. But then again, no one knows who any of you are, do they? It's easy to talk shit about your neighbors when you can put a bag over your head.
Matt, Where were all these people when Wall Street was taking our economy down? They didn't criticize the rich then. You are right, they just lick their boots. It's shameful. Also what are the chances that Ron Paul will give back the money? He didn't even show up to any of the meetings.
Jeff--
If you think teachers live high on the hog, you must be a serious underachiever. People in the newspaper business ought to know what it's like to work for companies that exploit their workers. If you were in a union, you'd make a living wage and wouldn't have to suck up to suits who care absolutely nothing about you and your family.
Carl P--
I would be surprised if Mr. Paul donated the money back to the football program, but I'm open to surprises.
I knew you'd go hard on me. But read what I wrote: private unions, yes; public unions, no. As a taxpayer funding public schools, it's wrong that I have no say who stays or who goes; no way to hold teachers accountable; no way to prevent a strike, or rather a circumstance whereby teachers and/or administrators, upset that they have to pay a little more or work a little harder, can hold my money hostage and give me no return on my REQUIRED investment. That's wrong. And don't get me started on tenure. Jesus.
And, dude, I've known many teachers in my life, and they do live high on the hog. One has to look at salary/benefits/perks on their own and not compare them to, say, newspaper wages/benefits/perks. It's easy to arrive at a conclusion when making comparisons. But on their own, I think you know public teachers live pretty damn good.
This ELO coach illustrates that pretty well, I think.
Its just a political game to you
Its way more than that, its about the rights of the people (taxpayers) vs the favored unions and their tools (Ds). And its about the future of the country.
Real abuses should be isolated and renegotiated. Even if you claim that can't be done, it can, and it has nothing to with politics. Or at least it doesn't have to. This is a political game, nothing more, and the wealthy have been able to get all you suckers to do their dirty work for them.
nothing to do with politcs....are you kidding?? It has everything to do with politics. Why do you think that unions and Ds and the White House's political arm have trucked in people from all over the country to Madison to fight Gov Walker? Its about way more than any one union or its members rights.
Rich people? I guess in your world anyone that pays taxes are rich people. After all, 48% of the workers don't pay any federal income taxes.
I hope you never need anything from your neighbors who work in the public sector or who belong to unions. But then again, no one knows who any of you are, do they? It's easy to talk shit about your neighbors when you can put a bag over your head.
I have several family members in unions, both public and private. Thanksgiving dinners are quiet fun. But this is a silly statement, meant to distract on an emotional basis rather than any debate on issues.
Jeff--
If being able to afford a modest home and live a relatively normal life is high on the hog, then I guess you're right. Implicit in your statement is a belief that teachers should be poorly paid for the important work they do. Why is that? Is it envy?
Not to be hard on you, but you can't compare salaries and benefits of newspaper workers with normal people. The only ones who make money in the newspaper business are managers. You know as well as I do that journalists eat very low on that hog.
If you think being a teacher is a step up, then get your certificate and teach.
Bozo--
By rich people I mean the millionaires and billionaires that control the economy. But you knew that.
I said too that contract negotiations do not HAVE to be political. It can simply be a business deal. Having said that, we all know that Republicans traditionally are anti-union and anti-worker. Democrats traditionally have supported the working- and lower-middle classes--that is, the people who have benefited from the protection of unions. Of course it's not that simple, but we're always painting with broad strokes when we talk national party affiliation.
I'll say it yet again: There are problems with unions, but that doesn't mean eliminating them is the answer. You're just inviting different problems. It's a baby-with-the-bath-water" thing.
I was saying don't fall into the trap of comparing.
I don't know what starting salaries are for post-secondary teachers are in Ohio, but here they're about, oh, last time I looked, about $31,000 --- with free benefits. Free. That's been my sticking point all along.
The average pay-out for people who want decent insurance is, for someone who is single, about $200 per month. So that's about $34,400 per year starting for a teacher, yet teachers pay typically just a co-pay.
And hell, I know a teacher who had major surgery and paid $10 when it was all over. That's a pretty good benefit and should be included when documenting what they make per year.
Another teacher went from $31,000 to $42,000 in about 10 years. Pretty good.
I love the concept of unions, but they don't appreciate their own power. Look what unions did to the auto industry.
It's all so confusing and subject to bad examples ruining it for everyone else. I'm just going with how I feel recently, with what I've read and seen. Maybe I'm batshit wrong.
And, nah, me no teach: I hate the sound of my own voice, and I really dislike other kids' parents. Oh, and I love English and literature too much to watch modern children, on the whole, completely ignore it. It's a different world, and kids are more shallow than ever. I'm afraid it will never change.
I suppose that'll be an argument to pay teachers more, right???
Matt,
You're a 'public' union member, you work for Ohio's oppressed taxpaying citizens! What's your annual/nine month salary? What are your benefits? What kind of insurance and pension did we give you?
In the Wisconsin public union benefits program, they get Viagra that cost the taxpayers nearly three-quarters of a million dollars. Do you get free Viagra?
Like most things, public unions have their positives and negatives.
Since many folks have talked about the negatives for the taxpayer and the positives for the teachers, I thought I would talk about the opposite.
Negatives for the Teacher
My father was a public school teacher for 32 years. He received excellent benefits and a very generous pension plan, typical of any public school teacher. But when growing up, my father told me I could be anything I want, but begged me not to be a teacher. The reason he stated, was because no matter how hard I worked, I would never be rewarded more than the teacher that started the same day as I did. All that matters is who can stick around the longest, not who produced the highest quality students. He said there is no shame in being a teacher, but you are destined for life in the middle class with no hope of progressing further unless leaving the public school environment. My father initially joined the teacher's union, and then subsequently quit because he did not see the need of belonging. That didn't matter of course - the pay raises the same for the worst teachers as it did for the best. I think we need to recognize that teachers make a sacrafice in knowing that hard work does not always pay off.
Positives for the Taxpayer
While many don't agree, it is nice knowing that your children can receive education until they reach adulthood at the expense of the taxpayer. If you have children, you benefit from this much more than someone who does not have children. If you don't own property or own an inexpensive home, you benefit more than most because your property taxes are lower, yet you are receiving the same educational product as those with more expensive homes (barring private education). But even those without children benefit, due to the fact that homes located in better quality school districts increase in value faster than those located in poor school districts. So good education is actually making you money.
Just my thoughts.
Jeff--
Oh please! Compared to wages in other fields that require college degrees, the salaries you mention are anything but excessive. It may seem so to those who make less, but those are poverty wages in most big cities. If I lived in the city, I wouldn't be able to afford to own a home on my salary. If we didn't have a union, I most likely wouldn't be able to afford a home in East Liverpool.
I pay $100 per pay for my health insurance, and by no means am I immune to paying significant portions of doctor bills. Luckily, I'm generally healthy, so I haven't seen how it works for an operation or extended care. I also pay $255 per pay (every two weeks) for my retirement. I'd like to know where all this free stuff comes from. It certainly doesn't apply to state university professors in Ohio.
Just think, if you were in a union, you might make $35k per year and enter the world of the wealthy!
"I pay $100 per pay for my health insurance, and by no means am I immune to paying significant portions of doctor bills. Luckily, I'm generally healthy, so I haven't seen how it works for an operation or extended care. I also pay $255 per pay (every two weeks) for my retirement. I'd like to know where all this free stuff comes from. It certainly doesn't apply to state university professors in Ohio."
That's just my point. The teachers I know barely pay even a fraction of what you yourself pay.
And you know...rich/poor is all relative. If it wasn't for one bill, I'd be comfortable. I have few wants and/or needs. Too bad the majority of this fuck-all-selfish-clueless-soulless country can't be the same way.
All I'm saying, and will continue to say, is that public workers need to pay a little more into the system --- and be held more accountable. How is that request any different than when you and other progressive thinkers ask for the rick to fork over more and be held more accountable?
Then renegotiate the contracts. You don't have to eliminate unions to do that.
There are problems with unions, but that doesn't mean eliminating them is the answer.
Please show where I advocated the elimination of unions. Never said it or anything close to it. What I advocated was breaking the unholy alliances between the public unions and the Ds that have corrupted the system.
If all of your fellow professors get together and got the Board of Directors to hire the next President of your college, do you think he/she would be a bit biased in negotiating a contract with the professors? Sure he/she would because his/her job would depend on it.
Same with public unions....make them happy or lose your election. Its as simple as that.
I resent your comment that we all hate anyone who makes a decent wage because that's not true, at least in my case.
A GOOD teacher is worth a good salary but like Jeff M points out the hourly wage is not all they receive. Benefits must be weighed also, and for most teachers they're darned good.
Not to mention, with summers off, MANY teachers work part-time jobs and earn additional money during those months.
I don't begrudge them any of it, but I know a LOT of retired teachers and most DO live pretty darned good, so the pension is healthy, too.
Please don't insult my intelligence by trying to convince me teachers live at the poverty level, because for the most part they don't.
My problem with unions is they now protect "bad" employees - particularly teachers - making it nearly impossible to terminate those who truly don't earn their salaries.
A GOOD teacher is worth a good salary; in this area, a good salary IS $35k nowadays.
Cutting Collective Bargaining rights is not the answer, the answer is you ban public sector unions and their members from offering financial or labor support for any political campaign. They should not be allowed to campaign for their new boss, who will be the one the negotiate with. In business the CEO of a company's number one responsibility is to protect the interest of the stockholders and leverage expenses against profits for the highest possible gain. This is exactly why no unionized company in the world allows any input from the union on who the next CEO is. It is impossible to negotiate fairly on behalf of the tax payer, when you OWE paybacks to the union who got you elected. In Ohio alone teachers unions spent 10% of their collected dues on political campaigns. You can have the dog watching the hen house have wolf blood in him or eventually he will eat the chickens with the wolves!
Why is the public unions making this sound like it's going to have any bearings on private unions? I think it's because the public sector is out numbered by the private and they need the "uneducated" union members support. With them not realizing This Bill will hit their pockets less if it passes... They sure are crafty.... Is this a scare tactic from the Left?
Why is it that East Liverpool School vehicles are permitted to display anti-SB5 signs ? School vehicles, teacher's t-shirts that are against SB5 have no place in our schools.Teachers are suppose to be teaching our kids not promoting their political agendas.
Fair day's work--
I wasn't aware that teachers are responsible for not having classes during the summer. The fact is that they're not responsible for it.
We can fix that real quick, though. I suggest getting a group of citizens together and lobbying the state legislature to change the length of the school year in Ohio. I agree that we need year-round education.
Myself, I'm on a nine month contract--that is, I am hired for nine months out of the year. I choose to have my nine-month salary spread out over twelve months, but that's a choice I make. However, I would be happy to work for 12 months. That would mean I'd get a 25 percent annual raise. Let's do it!
Bob--
Yes Bob, some of us actually do work for a living, and I'm one of them. My compensation is none of your business, but I'm sure it's half what you think it is. However, an effort to counter your constant disinformation campaign, I'll repeat what I contribute to my health insurance and retirement.
I pay approximately $100 each pay for health insurance, plus I have to make co-payments on all medical care and drugs. I pay $225 per pay (every two weeks) toward my retirement. I'm not sure what the university does, but it contributes something to my retirement, yes. What's wrong with that? And no, my health insurance does not cover Viagra.
It's so easy to counter your fantasies with facts. You need to come up with better ones.
How was the spelling bee? Heard you did a great job!
BA. Guess what? Union members were in on the interview process and the hiring of the new CEO at City Hospital.
The county spelling bee was great! It was a joy being around all those interesting, bright children and their supportive parents.
The US military should start a union! How well would that go over?
Bud, enough said we see how well that facility is functioning!
Thanks Matt, that's prety close to my package. If I was the Honorable John Kasich, I'd nail you profs a little on the hospitialization and pension.
I would remind you that as a 'publiic' employee your wages are public knowledge. However, in sympathy for your position I'd only cut you back 10% or so and do away with public unions/collective bargaining since you guys raped the pooch. Ya gotta pay for your greed, taxpayers have had enough of your silliness.
Bob--
My greed? Where is my greed? You just can't stand the fact that I have a job and you don't. You're as transparent as a Windexed window pane.
If you want to know my salary so bad, I urge you to call the university and find out. That information is public, but I'm not obliged to divulge it on a public web site.
I realize that you and your right-wing friends have contempt for education and culture, but there's no rule that says you have to make an ass of yourself every day saying it. But I urge you to continue. In the end, you are pretty funny--in a Sarah Palin sort of way.
I really don't understand what Bob means by "greed". MY husband is a state worker and believe me we do not live the high life as alot of people think public employees do. I heard on the news the other day that 6% of taxpayers money goes to public employees and that 36% goes to welfare! I do realize that it is needed by some and I have no problem with that. The problem I have is with the other 99% who just won't get off their lazy asses! Do you know that a family of 5 on welfare recieves $750 a month in food! I am not making it up, it is fact. So Bob, instead of getting mad about union workers who actually work everyday like M and my husband, why don't you get mad about those who sit around all day and do nothing and have it way better than than those hard working union people. Frankly, I am tired of your silliness!
Maybe we should just go to public financing for state and federal elections with no other $$$ allowed to be spent for or against any candidates. This would make each candidiate stand on his or her own and allow people to judge them without others telling us how we should be voting!!
'had enough' sweetie, I'm actually with you on cutting back the parasite class the liburls cater to in order to get their votes. Imagine paying people to have 'crazy' kids. Throw 'em off welfare if their second generation or more and no more money for all the librul bs.
Matt, you need a cut, about 10%, and 20% if you don't quite your whining. If you don't like it go compete on the open market and let me know how that works for you. Matt, I don't think you could do a job in the private sector. I don't think you have what it takes.
Bob--
Your jealous insanity has reached its limit here. While I admit that your daily demonstrations of right-wing madness are beneficial to the cause, your personal obsession with me and my job is a getting a little creepy. It's time for you to move on to another web site. How about "Potter Talk"? There is a link to the site under the AccuWeather box to the left.
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